Mayim Rabim

"the weird thing is, these little touches aren't erotic to him. Aren't men the ones who are supposed to be weak and need all these fences for their protection? "

No - chazal assume that women are as, if not more, sexual than men - if they had a sexist assumption, it was in the assumption that women are more, not less, likely to give in to sexual desire than men. (noshim daaton kalos aleyhen is most often used in sexual contexts).

As another level up for being separate in your bed, you can invest in a body pillow...they are long and big, but not uncomfortable to have in the bed.

We did that for a while (before we ended up with beds that separate--a nice plus of moving to Israel)

This is an area that has always fascinated me-- the "fences" of TM and those individual couples who view them as more of a personal decision and keep some but not others. I would love to hear more about it from people who fall into this category. From what FB describes it sounds difficult, though I imagine there are couples who do it successfully.

i think it might also be more of "not yet able" to keep... i like the body pillow idea.. but then again, i do like prefer couches. and one day, maybe we'll have two beds.

fB i'm very impressed on how each month you and your husband grow in your observance of t'h. it's beautiful.

hashem has some plan (no matter how crazy it may seem to us) and he will guide you and your husband.

my chosson and i have spent years batting between us that i'm more observant.. it's been a sore spot. this past shabbos.. b'h was wonderful.. he spent half an hour patiently helping me in my broken hebrew understand the parsha hashuvah.. and it was the best half hour we've spent.. he sat on one comfy chair and i sat on the couch and it seemed natural... (not that we normally sit together when learning but..) then we spoke for about half an hour about what i need to do this week to get ready for the mikveh and he said he'd help remind me to do the afternoon bedikot which i'm worried i'll forget. we're going to try at least during dinner not to pass stuff.. we'll see how it goes..

(btw for the curious, we don't hold by the custom of not seeing each other the week before)

fromBeneath, buy him a book. No really, he doesn't have to take a class, but having you be his teacher as you go (on one foot?) isn't really fair either. Get A Time to Refrain by Rabbi Shmuel Bruckenstein. It's published by Feldheim, but I can't find it on their site. (I hate Feldheim's website!)

Westside Judaica has it, or Amazon.com will special order it for you, or check your local Judaica shop.
it's short, simple, to the point, and only covers harchakos. Just what the doctor ordered. If you like, you can go through and highlight the ones you're actually keeping, but at any rate, it will make a good resource, and if he does something "extra," well, you won't complain, right?

Thanks for all the suggestions! I like the body pillow idea... And I could get my mom to pick up the book for me at Westside Judaica...

As talia said (and thank you for the compliment!), it is more of "moving into observances" rather than deciding not to keep it at all. I know I said, "we decided initially..." but if we had the resources, we probably would have separate beds. Each step is difficult, but as we get used to things (my husband was WAY better this month about remembering to not pass things than I was!), they get much easier.

Oh, and talia, my husband and I used to have observance battles as well (I'm much more observant than he is). I finally "gave up" and just went about my business - at lunch, he'd have a mouthful of food when I sat down to say the bracha. He got so annoyed at having to wolf that mouthful down, run and find a kippa so he could say, "amen" that he started keeping kippot around the house. Sometimes he wears one all day. As I just "do it" I find that slowly, but surely, he's starting to "do it," too. Happy countdown!

FB- my comment was not necessarily intended for you; you did state clearly in your post that you are "moving toward". But I do believe there are people out there that consciously pick to keep some harchakot and not others, and I'd really like to hear from them. Your post just raised the question in my own mind.

In my own relationship my husband is the "more religious" one, so I do understand the kind of dynamic that must exist between you and your husband, though I believe (as old fashioned as this may be) that the woman yields more power when it comes to these, and therefore I have effectively made my husband less religious to an extent since we got married. (Though I am 100% observant, he used to be a lot stricter.) TM is trickier than most other observances since both spouses have to agree to play, and I do wonder how strict I would be with the harchakot had I married someone less observant than I. Since I can't imagine having anything but "all or nothing" when it comes to harchakot we have managed to stay on the stricter side of things. I'm glad you are comfortable with the slow inching toward more, you are doing great things for your family!

Well, Avigail, I can respond to your question briefly here, and perhaps at greater length in a later post. My husband and I observe practically no ha'arachot, although I do sometimes think that I'd like to become more stringent in that area. I'm actually kind of amazed at how unproblematic our practice has turned out to be, from a practical standpoint. I haven't been any more tempted to have sex during niddah than I am tempted to eat non-kosher food, and if my husband has been struggling with temptation, he's certainly done a good job of hiding it. Surely, observing 7-10 days of niddah makes yielding to temptation much less likely than observing 12-14. However, I also think that the ease with which we deal with these things has a lot to do with our individual personalities. Some people need a lot of physical affection, but not necessarily frequent sex. For such people, ha'arachot are not only more difficult to observe, but also less necessary.

Thanks, though I am trying to reconcile the "I'd like to become more stringent in that area" with the "I'm kind of amazed at how unproblematic our practice has turned out to be." Also, I assume that by harchakot you mean everything besides sex... halakhically other forms of physical affection may be considered a violation of nidda on the d'oraita level, so I can't see how that would solve the problem. I don't think I could draw the line between touching and touching.

You're right, I did mean "(almost) everything besides sex." Obviously, I don't regard touching as integral to the prohibition. My occasional desire to become more stringent comes from a sense that I'm being too easy on myself. Inasmuch as the prohibitions on touching, sharing a bed, etc. are meant to prevent sex, I don't find my current practice problematic.

My occasional desire to become more stringent comes from a sense that I'm being too easy on myself

Because not having sex is not hard, so you don't get the full effect?

Thanks for clearing up the other matter, drawing the line at no intercourse seems pretty simple.

I also wanted to chime in on "some harachot".

My husband and I added mikvah to our life 4 months ago. At this point, we hug, and an occasional peck on the cheek. We separate for the Torah mandated 7 days. From that it goes without saying that we pass things to each other. We already had separate mattresses on one frame because if I roll over in the night it wakes my husband if we're in one bed.

I guess for those who are curious, it's similar to people who keep a kosher kitchen and eat vegetarian out or even eat anything out (which I find somewhat hypocritical).

I think in the short term the only reason we will change the harachot we follow would be to make it easier for him - this was my idea and he is not very happy with "no sex for a week" - I have toyed with the idea of more intimacy without sex to make it easier for him, but I feel like that would be similar to the kosher home but eat anything out I referred to above.

Unlike adding other mitzvot to our lives, this is one where it's hard to move at a different pace - with other mitzvot, he's led with some and I've led with others - but with mikvah we have to go at one pace. We'll see what happens I guess.

Good luck, Chana! It's not easy, but it's certainly rewarding.

For some men, (not all, of course, this is a general statement), "more intimacy without sex" is actually harder, not easier. For women (again, in general) it's the opposite. So discuss it with your husband before making any decisions on it, of course, but more harchakot instead of less may actually make it easier for him.

FYI I've seen "Kosher at home but eat out" backfire, when friends of mine weren't "home" anymore (ie in college) there was no longer any reason to keep Kosher, b/c it was the house and not them that was Kosher. And I was somewhat more the eat vegetarian out kind of person as a child, but it got less and less comfortable to do so, until I stopped eating (not-strictly Kosher) out altogether. So it can go either way, but in my experience, it isn't a stable situation. If the comparison holds.

What my husband has said makes it hard for him is that he works in public and is inundated with scantily clad women, billboards, etc. in his commute and part of his job - he said he's learned to transfer those thoughts to me and look forward to getting home, but when I'm niddah he feels he doesn't have a "kosher" outlet and has to suffer. The rebbitzin we talked to suggested that we come up with other activities to do together that don't lead to the bedroom (i.e. have friends over for a game night). I'd love to hear what other people do together to build their relationship while niddah.

Since this discussion seems to have resumed, I will try to answer Avigayil's question. I'm not so concerned about not getting the "full effect" (although that may change later in life, who knows). It's just that for me, halachic observance is mainly about expressing one's commitment to God and Judaism, which means that you have to go out of your way, to a certain extent. On the other hand, I do get peeved at people who seem to think that Jewish observance has to be difficult. These days, I think that I'm going out of my way about the right amount (a completely subjective, non-halachic judgement, of course). It doesn't come naturally to me to wait a full seven days to have sex when my period typically lasts about four days, and it certainly doesn't come naturally to spend two and a half hours on the train, an hour in the bath, and another forty-five minutes or so in the shower, just to take a quick dunk in a little pool thingie before resuming relations with my husband. On the other hand, observing the laws fully would be quite a bit harder.

Ruchama, this doesn't take away at all from your overall point, but I was just struck by one detail in your last comment - "an hour in the bath, and another forty-five minutes or so in the shower."

I take about that long altogether to get ready, but only because I'm obsessive beyond all reason about my cuticles! Everything I have ever read says a woman should be able to get ready in about an hour, start to finish.

There is actually no minimum time required for the bath, just to soak long enough for scabs or tough skin to soften. Judging by manicures and pedicures, 10 minutes might be enough for that! My kallah teacher said 20 minutes is probably average (doing other things while you soak), so that's what I shoot for. I've taken 15 minute baths when crunched for time and the mikvah attendant said that was perfectly fine.

Showers can be even shorter, just long enough to wach your hair, soap everything up one more time (you don't need to scrub again the way you did in the bath, unless I suppose a long time went by in between) and rinse off.

Like I said, I'm obsessive enough that I should be the last person to question anyone else preparing longer than the average! Heh. But I'm curious whether you realize a 1-hour bath and 45-minute shower is probably MUCH longer than required.

Chana -

Scrabble is good (even without company). Or any other board game that requires concentration and strategy, preferably a longer one.

What about bowling? Ping pong? What did your husband do as a "coping" mechanism before you were married? Any ideas he could use from then?

I'm not sure where you two are holding on other subjects, but what about learning Torah together, chavrusa style?