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I know going from tehorah to niddah (and back again) isn't fun or easy. It's why we are supposed to calculate onot, in anticipation of niddah. It's why we count clean days in anticipation of mikveh.
But I really wasn't prepared this month for my husband's reaction after I came home from mikveh.
We both had a difficult time with harchakot this past cycle. I was doing ok (some extreme physical pain made me really not want to be touched) but well, as the days wore on (5,6, shabbos) it was quite difficult.
Not to mention that the mikveh opened really late motzei shabbos. And I was a bit worried. Would they remember me? Would I have the same receptionist? Attendant? Would I remember to do everything? As it was late I convinced my husband to drive me to the mikveh.. there's a small patch I'm not to comfortable walking alone. He agreed and asked me how long it would take. I told him that all I had to do was shower and dip, I had already bathed as soon as shabbos finished. He agreed and brought along a nice thick book. We parked around the corner and down the block... I went in. I paid cash this time. I knew exactly what I needed, "a shower only please". I walked with a bit more confidence. I fit in how I felt, unlike last time (the "first" time). This time I was eager to reunite with my husband. This time I understood the look in others eyes. The anticipation, the unspoken stress. "Room 9" I was told... I went. Locked both doors successfully. Showered. Checked my feet. EEP! dry skin flaking everywhere. I fixed it the best I could (see extreme physical pain above. b"H I'm ok, it's just uncomfortable to bend). i called the attendant and hoped for the best. a very nice woman came. I apologized ahead of time for the flailing skin all over my feet. I could barely bend my leg for her to check it. She was very nice and gentle to me. She helped me to snip all the extra bits. We then went directly to the mikveh. She let me wear my glasses down so I wasn't too scared of the steps. Dunk. "kosher". Made the brachah successfully on my own. Omein. Dunk. "kosher". Ye'hi Ratzon. With help. Silly me forgot my glasses were right there on the step next to me. Oh well. Dunk. "kosher". With modesty I went back up the steps (she had the robe in front of her). A gentle warm touch. "How often have you been here?" she gently asked. "Twice". She smiled and wished me a gut voch and a pleasant evening. I left. Walking to the car I realized I forgot to leave a tip. Oops. Next time. We've decided we'll play this game for a year.
I got into the car and leant to kiss my husband and he responded by starting the car and getting out of the parking spot. No one would have seen us. I had been looking forward to that kiss for two weeks.
I hid my disappointment and we went home, stopping at the store for the next morning's breakfast. (not what *I* had been planning on, but whatever). Then we went home and he got ready for sleep.
I tried to snuggle with him but he sort of "threw off" my advances.
This happened more or less for the next two weeks. We advanced to hand holding, a wee bit of snuggling, and a bit of sex. Today I am niddah again. We were anticipating it but ...
But we still haven't fully resolved this er... not really his lack of his interest.. I think it's more an imbalance in timing? I think it also has to deal with some other areas of our lives (i.e. how I display my married status), but, well, his behavior surprised me.
In any case, I'm eagerly counting down to mikveh night again. It should be another motzei shabbos if my body continues to act on medicated clockwork.
We'll see what this cycle brings.
Comments
Talia, I'd like you to answer Shifra's questions too, but from what I understand at the moment, your husband is coming from a very different place than you are, and you need to take that into consideration.
As a convert, you feel, rightly, that you have very little leeway in following the halacha, as your conversion was predicated on your assuming all of halacha. I think it must be very hard to convert Orthodox, and I respect your choice... I'm just trying to help you understand your husband's perspective.
I'm a Ba'alas Teshuvah, a "returnee" to Judaism. As such, I had the option of taking on one halacha at a time until I reached my comfort level. My husband and I had a rather long relationship before we reached the engagement stage, because I needed to be at his level of observance (more or less) before we could be married, since then I would be forced to match him on those halachos that require both of our participation... namely, Taharat HaMishpacha. Luckily for both of us, that was my long term goal as well, whether or not we actually married each other.
You're not giving your husband that time. (Regardless of how long you've known each other, it doesn't sound like he has reached that level. I don't know if he was trying to. From your previous posts, it doesn't sound like he has the same vested interest in being Orthodox as you do.) You're expecting your husband to jump in with both feet because you need him to be at your level NOW. As a born and raised not-as-religiously-observant Jew he's probably feeling a bit put upon that his wife is "pushing" these halachos on him.
I don't know what the answer is. I would suggest trying to find a Rabbi that you can both talk to, separately and then together, so you can be on the same page. As you each see it now, you have a mandate from G-d... and he has a mandate from Talia. His behavior is in response to that imbalance. I think talking it out (with the Rabbi's help) so that you can at least both see and understand the other's perspective would make a huge difference.
Hatzlacha! ("I wish you success!")
Yeah - what they said. And, my apologies for knowing nothing about HTML or building URLs, but this post and Desde's comment made me go reread some of your previous posts, and it does sound like this is more of the same as you mentioned in your "In response" comment (2/16/05, 9:14pm) from your post "Longer Intro" (2/11/05). . .
I get the impression that he sees the separation as you imposing your will on him, and in response, he is in turn pulling awa from you when *you* are vested in being together.
It sounds very sticky, and I hope the two of you find a way to navigate through this soon, so that it does not get a chance to escalate.
Ok, I'll reply in order of posts to just be "fair" ...
Shifra: Imbalance of timing I think is more well, is it as much fun when it's not "forbidden"? I have chosen to completely cover my hair, be it with hair (real or fake), scarves, snoods, etc. My husband disagrees with this in terms of his hashkafa, lamenting that I look like a cancer patient... and it’s not -modern- ...
Desde: Wow. Thanks. It's quite true. I feel I don't have the choice everyone else has in terms of halacha (and I don't, that was what I *VOWED* at my very first mikveh visit one morning a while ago when I converted). I *must* do certain things or *someone* will decide I wasn't a sincere convert and take it away from me. Honestly, my fear of hashem is greater, but this is quite big and for a while I was waiting for a Rabbi to come knock down my wall and say "ah - hah! you didn't make that brachah right, you're no longer jewish" .. that hasn't done well for me to actually gain the confidence to approach a rabbi about my questions/concerns/difficulties. Yes, my husband has come from an "educated but unobservant" background. He asked me to be an orthodox jewess (I thought I'd be conservative). I became one, and he didn't realize that there was work involved for him too. He doesn’t exactly “fear g-d” (or man, just me). I give and take, but there is only so far I can bend and it's difficult. This lifestyle has appealed to me and I have found it relatively easy to do. We did take our T”H classes together which was VERY beneficial. Among other things we both got to see an orthodox couple work together and teach our separate classes. We had a long period of time before we got engaged, and he’s learnt that there are certain things that need to happen and he’s risen to the challenge (kosher, shabbat -- well, he’s still working on that)... I’m trying to give him the space and time... When I back off he’s suprised me. He knows that his wearing tzitzit makes me very happy... he wore a pair (why are they called pairs?) to our wedding. When he showed me when we got home, I was so happy I cried. Weird? Yes. Anyway, I’ve relaxed more that I can explain in words (if you knew me personally it would make more sense), and it is getting better. I think a big part of our problem was that we were together for a very long 3-day weekend... and had very little time apart. (Bathroom breaks was about it) ... Normally this is fine (say, if we were traveling), but we were in our “cozy” 1-bedroom apartment for 2/3 days due to my illness... We do need to find a rabbi. I need to find a rabbi to ask my plethora of shailot (questions) ... I love the couple we had our classes with, but they are so incredibly busy, and I don’t live in their community, its been tough to get in touch with them. I’m going to write the rebbetzin a letter to see if that helps me a little. My husband and I are talking through it more and more. Tonight so far is better...
Michal: Thank you. This site has helped me lots. Having a place to talk and know that I’m not alone helps me very much.
Thank you for wishes. Hatzlachah leading to simchas!
Talia, from reading these posts I can see a bit more of where you are both coming from. I think Desde is right, your husband is in a different place than you. As admiral as it is for him to be willing to jump into Orthodoxy with you, it is bound to be much harder for him because he has lived being Jewish all his life, and never has done any of these things. It's a constant mind battle for him, and seeing you do it with such ease can be very hard on a male ego.
I am a Ba'alas Teshuvah as well, and it was a VERY slow process for me to get to the point where I am today. I am often amazed at how my convert friends were able to take on everything immediately. Perhaps if the two of you sit down and write out a list of goals for both him and you and a time period you are willing to spend with each, it might ease your husband's stress a little. This way he will know you are not pressuring him because you both have a schedule. Just because you take something on, doesn't mean he needs to. He will get there in his own time. You just need to be respectful of him not doing everything, just like he needs to be respectful of you doing more. Tell him as long as he doesn't resent you for what you are doing, you can support him on what he wants to do. You'll find that your husband will take on more things the less you pressure him.
And since we are on the subject of him respecting what you take on... he's allowed to have a point of view on your head-covering, but he shouldn't rub it in or make you feel bad for doing it. That is your choice. Tell him that "modern" is a very loose term. I'm 28, I cover my head and I don't think of myself as old-world. I purposely don't refer to myself as a "modern orthodox Jew" because I don't want to classify myself into an area that seems to have certain expectations. But the truth is; I'm more "modern" than many of the women who classify themselves that way. If he doesn't like the scarves, fine, wear your wig more often to calm him. Try dressing in trendy-type clothes to show him you can be hip and religious at the same time. Just because you're tznius, doesn't mean you have to be frumpy. Show him that being religious will be the most fun you will ever have... because it's true.
"Show him that being religious will be the most fun you will ever have... because it's true."
That is such an awesome attitude! Thanks for that reminder, Shifra.
That's why I'm observant today... because I fell in with a group of kids in college who felt exactly that way, and dragged me to the Neilah Service (on Yom Kippur!) with exactly that attitude. Who could resist?
I feel bad saying this, but I sometimes have the exact opposite problem. My husband is younger than I am (and I wasn't that old when we got married, so hopefully you get a little of the picture)...i sometimes feel like my husband can't think of anything else other than being together...it is not that he is not the most warmloving/caring person in the world..he makes sure I get whatever I need..he watches the baby so i can rest, helps around the house whenever i need, lets me have my breakdowns once in awhile, and does other little nice surprises...but for some reason everytime we hit the bed he's ready (assuming I am not a niddah, which has been most of my married life bc b"h it was spent pregnant/nursing)...although if i say im too tired, he'll just roll over and og to bed and not complain or say a word, i know its hard for him...the problem is its hard for me to, i get exhausted very easily and my husband comes home late from night seder/ma'ariv...really i am not complaining that he doesn't respect me when i am tired..but i would like to be able to cuddle/relax calmly together at night before going to sleep and then go to sleep some nights..but for him its all or nothing..i keep telling myself its because hes young and raging hormones, but he is 3 yrs old than when we got married..i don't know..i mention it to him with subtle clues but im not sure he gets it...the nights where we play a game together or read a book relaxing in a bed...so im not sure how this fits into the post, but its just a way of me trying to relieve some of my feelings....btw, as a side note but i think this has a lot to do with it: i have a hard time at certain parts when we are together..we have been working on it with advice and the situation has definitely improved (after doctor visits, rabbi talks, and a/t else you can imagine), but I still have the problem where I don't really enjoy the act of intimacy in general...i like all the stuff before but I think part of my enjoyment is taken out because I know what ends up happening..thanks for a listening ear...i would tell my husband but then he feels bad and thinks its his fault, etc. etc....
well, thanks for a listening ear!
FYI,
I am not a professional, so feel free to disregard anything I say. I would just like to help because I'm sad to read what you've written.
The impression I have is that you're approaching this as only your issue. But I really, truly think you need to be approaching this as a couple. I know that you don't want to make your husband feel bad, but I can't imagine it's helping to hint rather than say how you really feel. Whatever he's imagining (she doesn't like being intimate with me - she's not attracted to me anymore - I'm an animal for having these desires when she doesn't want them) is probably far worse than what you would actually say. If you are scared, don't do it by yourself. Make some appointments with a therapist so you can talk about in a safe environment, with someone who can help you mend any hurts if they do happen.
I think a lot of what you are saying is probably not that unusual; many women are not exactly in synch with their husbands with regard to frequency of sex or time of day when they're in the mood. And yes, men and women's sexual drive peaks at different ages. Many women also report a decrease in libido after having children. But the fact that it's common doesn't mean there's nothing to do about it. If you used to have more interest in sex than you do now, or if you wish you were more interested but your body doesn't cooperate, you might benefit from medication. And if I were you I might ask our rabbi whether we could be more flexible about the time of day when we have sex. Maybe your husband can make dates with you sometimes in the morning or afternoon, whenever it fits better into your daily rhythm. Maybe sometimes he can at least come home early from night seder.
But some of the other things you say suggest that it's not just a question of getting in the mood. You don't have to answer this, I fully respect your wish to speak about this delicately on a public forum. But I suspect either some part of intercourse is physically hurting you, or you have a negative psychological reaction to some part of it, or you are not reaching orgasm through intercourse.
The fact that you mention you are seeing doctors is somewhat reassuring to me. I assume they have told you that pain during intercourse always has a cause, which should be investigated, and is usually very treatable. If the problem is more psychological, I hope they are working on that with you instead. If it's a question of not reaching orgasm, this should be a very solvable problem, too.
But if your doctors are not saying all this to you, then I strongly urge you to find ones that will. I'm not implying at ALL that something is wrong with you if you don't like sex as much or as often as your husband, or if you don't like intercourse as much as some other form of stimulation. Men and women are different in general, and everyone is different in particular. But to whatever extent you DO want to experience sexual pleasure, you have the Gd-given right. Don't give it up without a fight.
Why do you feel it is an imbalance in timing? What is going on with your husband to make being able to be with you not appealing to him? What about how are you displaying your marital status is effecting him?
I'm sorry for all the questions; I just want to understand a bit more where you are coming from.
Intimacy is powerful, and for that reason it should be approached gently and comfortably for both -- but never used as a weapon. If he is having some problems he should talk to you instead of just pushing you away.